Denne uges torsdagsbrev drejer sig om et interview som jeg har lavet i mandags (mandag 25 augus 2019) med Henrik Allum og Neama Noor. Det startede med en længere interesse i de økonmiske motivationsmekanismer i tvangsanringelser af børn. Der florere mange mere eller mindre plausible forklaringer om, at kommunerne tjener penge på at anbringe børn. Hanrik Allum og Neama Noor havde lagt en video på Youtube, hvor de forklarede en sammenhæng imellem økonomiske interesser og tvangsanrbingelser af børn i Norge. (Se videoen her). Deres forklaring resonerede veldig godt med nogle observationer og overvejelser som jeg selv havde gjort mig. Da jeg kunne se at parret boede i Oslo og da jeg i forvejen holder meget af, at tage med færgen fra København til Oslo spurgte jeg over internettet parret om min kæreste og jeg kunne tage op og besøge dem og lave et interview med dem. Henrik og Neama sagde "ja" til dette og sådan kom aftalen i stand.
Vi havde kun nogle få timer i Oslo da vi skulle med færgen tilbage igen samme eftermiddag, så det var ikke muligt at lave grundige forberedelser eller optage flere gang. Vi skulle hitte ud af transporten, hitte ud af at lærer hinanden, at kende og hitte ud af at få lavet en videooptagelse på 4 - 5 timer. Familien har et barn hjemme imens vi optager og et til barn som kommer hjem under optagelserne derfor bliver optagelserne en lille smule opbrudt eller uhomogen.
Vi har aftalt at lave interview på engelsk, fordi jeg mener, at indholdet er af international interesse. Der er dog steder i interviewet hvor vi skifter til norsk og dansk.
Efter jeg er kommet hjem har jeg prøvet at finde hoved og hale i optagelserne og prøvet om jeg kunne dele op og finde nogle temaer. Det er blevet til tre dele. Del 1 Om Penge, Magt og Motiver. En lille del som fortæller Victorias (Neamas datter) Historie og en del som fortæller Neamas Historie. Første del bringer jeg i dette torsdagsbrev og de to øvrige i det næste.
Bemærkninger til dette afsnit
Aktivitetsbaseret budgetmodel: Henrik taler i videoen om "innsatsstyrt finansiering". Det er det samme princip vi bruger her hjemme i Danmark. Her hedder det "Aktivitetsbaseret budgetmodel" eller populært sagt "pengene følger borgeren". "Aktivitetsbaseret budgetmodel" blev indført på rigtig mange omårder i det offentlige omkring 2008.
Ideén er at i stedet for at pengene tildeles institutionerne på baggrund af nogle puljer så skulle de tildeles institutionerne på baggrund af de opgaver de udfører i forbindelse med en borger.
Det gjorde man i bedste mening for at opnå en mere retfærdig fordeling af pengene og for at sætte opgaven i centrum frem for institutionen. Der er i sig selv ikke noget galt med princippet. Det giver på mange områder god mening at fordele penge efter dette princip, men som med alle andre systemer så er der nogle der kigger grundigt på dem og bliver dygtige til at forstå hvordan, man for flest muligt penge ud af systemet til det man gerne vil.
Det heder sig at pengene følger borgeren. Mere rigtigt ville det dog være at skrive at pengene følger "beskrivelsen af borgeren". Dem som bevilliger ydelser ser nemlig sjældent borgeren. De ser der imod beskrivelserne af borgeren i journaler og ansøgninger. Nøglen til tildeling af ydelser bliver beskrivelsen af borgeren. Hvis man skal have midler ud af systemet skal man mestre kunsten, at beskrive borgeren på en måde som udløser midler.
Når vi kommer til anbringelse af børn kommer der endnu en faktor som kommer ind.
Tvangsfjernelse af børn er en retslig beslutning. Hvis retssalene (B&U-Udvalget) kommer frem til at barnet skal tvangsfjernes så kan Kommunen ikke undslå sig at betale den ydelse som følger med.
Sagt med andre ord. Inden for området som gælder beskyttelse af børn er det særligt potent at kunne beskrive og definere behovet for indgreb.
Denne uges torsdagbrev skulle have været en en afslutning på sommertemaet om Kari Killén. Det skulle have været et interview/samtale imellem en kvinden som har fået tvangsfjernet to børn og mig. Samtalen kredser om hvordan de ting hun har oplevet i sin proces kan relateres til de ting vi er kommet frem til at forstå vedrørende Killéns teoridannelse og anvendelsen af den. Desværre kontaktede kvinden mig i går og sagde at hun ikke var parat til at interviewet blev publiceret. Det er en skam for det er et godt interview og det illustrerer veldigt fint hvad der er for nogle processer som er i spil og hvordan de virker i praksis. Jeg er dog naturligvis nød til at lade dette interview udgå af programmet når kvinden ikke ønsker det publiceret.
Status
Torsdags den 26/07/18 udgav jeg det første torsdagsbrev. Det er lidt over et år siden i dag. Jeg husker hvordan jeg ønskede dialog ønskede at gøre opmærksom på nogle problemer som jeg via mit forløb havde fået øje på. Husker hvordan jeg følte at det var svært at få hul igennem. Det er voldsomt hvad der er sket siden jeg gik i gang med aktivt, at udfordre og udforske omstændighederne omkring anbringelser af børn i Danmark. Jeg fik sat gang i dannelse af en forening og jeg fik etableret en fælles nordisk forening, jeg fik kontakt med en masse internationale aktivister, fik læst og sat mig ind i ting, lavet interview, lærte Kari Killéns datter at kande og senest er jeg blevet del af en lille gruppe som arbejder sammen internationalt omkring modarbejdelse af unødvendige og korruptionsbetingede anbringelser af børn og som arrangerer en verdensomspændende demonstration den 7 september. Jeg er stolt og glad over dette forløb og over Torsdagsbrevet ét års fødselar :-)
Demonstration
Som sagt er der demonstration i Aarhus og København og i hen ved 40 andre byer i 16 forskellige lande i hele verden den 7 september. Planlægningen af denne event fylder meget for mig lige for tiden og derfor vil jeg gerne bruge resten af dette torsdagsbrev, på den pressemeddelelse jeg er i gang med at lave for demonstrationen
Internationale demonstrationer imod Norges dydfunktionelle børnebeskyttelsessystem
- Danmark benyttes samme system -
I mere end 40 byer fordelt på 16 lande demonsteres der den 7. september imod det norske "Barnevernets" ideologi. "Barnevernet" er navnet på Norges officielle børnebeskyttelsesinstans, men hvad er årsagen til at norsk børnebeskyttelse har vagt sådan en harme og opsigt over hele verden? 80 % af alle de børn som blive tvangsfjernet i Norge bliver ikke fjernet på grundlag af reelle problemer som vanrøgt, vold eller misbrug. De bliver fjernet på grundlag af en teoretisk model omhandlende tilknytningsteori og forældrekompetencer. En model som ikke rummer faste og konkrete holdepunkter for hvornår en tvangsfjernelse er berettiget og som derfor lægger hele spørgsmålet op til sagsbehandlerens fortolkning. Sagsbehandlerne er bange for at gøre fejl og være skyld i at børn svigtes så de vælger meget ofte det som forekommer dem som den sikre løsning nemlig tvangsfjernelse af børnet også selv om der er tale om ubetydelige problemer. Samtidig ser det ud til at der er grupperinger og enkeltindivider som tjener penge på anbringelserne. Der tales om en anbringelses industri. Det har ført til et højt antal af tvangsfjernelser hvor børn fjernes og fastholdes i anbringelse uden der er et reelt behov for det. I mange tilfælde fjernes børn fra og velfungerende forældre. Denne tendens til, at gribe ind og fjerne børn uden et reelt grundlag for det har vagt opsigt. Menneskerettighedsdomstolen har taget hele 26 sager op til behandling vedrørende det norske "barnevernet" og en hel masse mennesker verden over har besluttet sig at gå på gaden i protest imod "Barnevernets" ideologi. I Danmark har vi særlig god grund til at demonstrere. Vores system er nemlig næsten identisk med det norske og i Danmark tvangsfjernes der også mange børn som med fordel kunne være blevet i hjemmet. Særlig fastholdes børn i anbringelse uden behørig hensyntagen til at forholden i hjemmet er ændret og hjemgivelse er blevet mulig. Derfor går vi på gaden den 7. september i København og Aarhus og i over 40 andre byer i Norge, Østrig, Litauen, Bulgarien, Spanien, Serbien, Rusland, Italien, Canada, USA, Irland, New Zealand, Polen, Tyskland og Rumænien.
Igennem denne sommer har jeg beskæftiget mig med teoretiker og fagbogsforfatter Kari Killén hvis teorier har afgørende betydning for den måde vi i Danmark og mange andre lande tolker behovet for et gribe ind i en familie og fjerne børn med tvang. De første to interviews/samtaler var på engelsk, og så har vi lavet et på dansk som kommer lidt omkring de samme emner, som de to engelske, men som også bringer lidt andre emner og vinkler på banen.
Jeg blev af en bekendt opfordret til at indsætte link til den video med Kari Killén som Mette referer til i starten af vores samtale. En video jeg tidligere har linket til. Jeg har indlejret videoen her under og er straks dybt fascineret af at set Mettes ansigt og Karis ansigt i næsten sammen vinke lige over og under hinanden.
This is the last Thursday letter for my summer theme about Kari Killén that is in English. The end of the summer theme will be followed by a small appendix of the summer theme in Danish. These appendices will be published the next two Thursdays and will contain two interviews. I want to use the current Thursday letter to follow up on some things that I have discovered and considered during this summer. Mainly things related to a search on the social network Instagram via the hashtag #KariKillén. It turned out that there were things to be found about Kari Killén on Instagram. Here it was mostly students who mentioned Kari Killén. Some were talking about study books and some had been photographed with her in connection with a course or a seminar. There were several pictures of Kari Killén in Greenland in connection with course activities so Killén's methods are obviously widespread in Greenland as well. I have chosen a small text that a student posted on Instagram together with a picture. The image and text has been uploaded to the profile "uc_syd". "uc_syd" is the instagram profile of an education centre in the Danish town of Esbjerg. Students can put up posts on the centre's profile and a young female student did exactly that on 20/10/2016. Here is what she wrote: (The text is translated from Danish the original Instagram post is her )
"I can come in late today, as we have joint dinner in the Family House on Thursdays. My morning will be about writing up my internship assignment, Kari Killén is a big part of the Family House, so much of the theory in my assignment comes from her. Our work is based on her theories, in addition, she is my manager's sparring partner, so if there is a family that we are very concerned about, Kari will gladly receive a video clip we recorded of the parents (they sign when they arrive at the house if they agree to be videoed or not. They can then tick whether the clip should be deleted as soon as we have seen it with the family, whether it can be saved up to 6 months, so we can show it to the family again before departure so they can see their and the child's development, and the last box says it can be used for the education of professionals, but not people who know the family) and then Kari reports back to my manager whether we were right in our concern or not. I was so lucky that I was on a course with her a few months ago concerning exactly what we are working with in the Family House.
#ucsyd #ucssydkolding #praktikiudlandet # KariKillén"
There are several interesting things in this text. You can see in this text that Killén's theories are being lived out in the Family Houses (Danish official family institutions). It is also clear that the head of the department in this specific Family House in Denmark has direct communication with Killén regarding specific cases and that sometimes video recordings of parents and children were sent to Kari Killén in order to have her evaluate whether the assumption about the family was right or wrong. This is all contributing to the picture of a highly theoretical way of evaluating the child's needs. Killén and her disciples are not concerned with matters that can be measured, weighed or otherwise proven. They work on behalf of a highly abstract concept of what parenting and child welfare is and they promote the idea that Killén and the people that have studied her theories are able to discover parental problems that other people cannot see. The #karikillén hashtag on Instagram led me to very clear proof of this. A picture of this book.
You don't see it until you believe it
- A writing for children's rights
by
Inga Marte Thorkildsen
This title that I believe was made by one of Killéns disciples so clearly states that we are dealing with a concept of child neglect that cannot be seen unless you have the special skills to see it. The problem with such a concept is that it implies divine insight by the professionals who know the theory. Decisions made by such professionals cannot be discussed or doubted because they are brought foreword by a person with the ability to see what uninitiated people cannot see. That might be alright in the case that the professional was actually a person with divine insight. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the case. Killéns theories do not seem to be the direct path to the truth. Rather it seems to be
pretty unprecise and unscientific pseudoscience that lends itself to various kinds of manipulation, giving justification to forcefully split up a family without having any literal prove of abuse or neglect. I would have loved to end this Thursday letter with a short CV about Kari Killén - a short reference of her life since I was not able to find such a reference when I started my research. Since I now have met her daughter, I am in the position to get the information it needs to make one. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do it right now. I will leave this very interesting summer theme for now, at least the English version of it. From next week however, I will continue the Kari Killén theme in Danish for a little while.
So hello this is the second episode of my conversation with Mette Heap who is the daughter of Kari Killén, and Kari Killén is the theoretical that I am exploring for this summer. I have a summer theme of Kari Killén and I have gone to the west coast of Jutland to visit Mette. We had a conversation last time about her and her mother and and life and considerations this time we are going to focus on.... Well I have one theme that I like to follow and that is that Kari Killén seems to be an artist in splitting. That was kind of my wording of this. I had that picture when I talked with Mette. I see the threat of a splitting strategy that by splitting she gets herself into a power position and maybe also this thing about seeing the vulnerability of this most deep connection between a child in a parent and the possibility of taking on power by using the weakness and softness in that position. The theories in these written books are facilitating a power overtake by splitting. That was my approach of this second interview, and I wanted to kind of see if I could follow or I had this idea that we have a young woman that comes into life and that she finds some strategies for the personal life that she would refine and refine. Eventually it will become a whole theoretical theme and she has done what she has done very successfully if you think of positioning herself with power... That was kind of the thread I wanted to follow. Mette I have here on the other side was also wanting to follow a trace of her professional life what she has seen of results of this way of thinking. We will see if we can navigate these stories if we can make out some pattern and also just go along with what we seem to discover. We could start with me that you could accept the term the master of splitting or turning splitting into an art form first when I said it you said to me "splitting will never be in art form" hahaha I said yeah.. If you refine something it is an art form and I guess we kind of agreed but you also had an emotional reaction to it you wouldn't accept that because you found it very negative you said to me something yesterday you'd been in a court case or Court situation with your mum
Mette:
no not with my mum but with her theories so she could have been there
Mikkel:
and you said that you knew what you could expect. You knew because you knew the way of thinking. You knew all the things that would be followed in this structure of damaging and making the person look as being wrong in certain concepts. I said yeah you know that from your professional background and you know that from your personal experience from your life because you have seen these strategies lived out throughout your childhood
Mette:
but without calling it an art form
Mikkel:
without calling it an art form talking about making splitting into a what? A strategy that is?
Mette:
it works... Because when you split people and they don't speak together and they don't communicate together. That gives power to the splitter.
Mikkel:
do you think you could make that work too if you went on that path?
Mette:
I would never walk that path, because I'm not that kind of person
Mikkel:
a lot of people... Say that because I've been through this you've been through a lot of things are very similar actually even though your kids were not taken by authorities but you've been through very similar things. I can say that it feels like that strategy that would be Kari Killéns strategy, is actually transferred into people that read this (clapping the book that he's sitting with). They really read that there are certain kinds of people with certain behavior, and if you are able to recognize that behaviour you should intervene and do stuff in their lives with their kids and you have the right to do that because you recognize that pattern. They become what should I say evil . We have some kind of an evil pattern where your compassion or your normal way of thinking your ways of solving problems ok your child has this and that problem. Let's see what we can do. Do you have some examples from your perspective you can mention?
Mette:
yeah I in 2013 a mother contacted me. She had just been diagnosed sclerosis and she was alone with two kids think 1/2 and 3 years old. She didn't have any family network because her parents were addicted to alcohol and drags. The father of the two girls was in and out of prison also because of drugs and there was no contact to hum. She contacted me to ask me to help her to have her working skills evaluated. And after short time I sort of catched that she had a much bigger problem than that.
Mikkel:
were you supposed to evaluate her?
Mette:
no no I was just supposed to represent her. she didn't get the rest she needed especially in weekends or holidays. She had daughters all the time, so she could rest in the middle of the day
Mikkel:
and she will need a little more rest than normal
Mette:
much more... So we contacted the City Council to ask practical help and help with the children... Never happened after 1 1/2 years nothing really had happened. The family consultant came out and criticized her and wrote a lot that was not correct
Mikkel:
you come around and you point the finger at things that are not good and that the person is perfectly aware of not being good and there is no real reason to point the finger at that
Mette:
no that's why she asked for help but she didn't get any help just criticism.
Mikkel:
yeah I tried that
Mette:
yeah and she got weaker and weaker of course because she didn't get her rest her sclerosis was developing and in this process she met a nice man who lived in a different Council. The previous City Council sent a report to the new City Council and then suddenly things went really fast. She went into hospital with an attack and the day after she got home they were supposed to go on a holiday place for five days with two family consultant who were sort of to observe her and that was when I for the first time really realized what it was to frustrate the parents un purpose she could hardly walk and her balance was totally out of order.
Mikkel:
it's upsetting
Mette:
and they wanted her to go to the swimming pool with her two daughters which she did. Only so they could describe that she didn't give the girls any notice and that she appeared to be obsessed with their own safety. But why? She tried to protest and said “I can't do this” and they said well this is an everyday thing
Mikkel:
yeah you should be able to do this.. But if she was able to do everything that every parents are able to do, she wouldn't be in this situation.
Mette:
so a big report comes out of these days where our protest to this report was about as many pages as the report itself, which says a lot about the lies and manipulations. A family consultant came to observe in their own home. One evening this mother called me and said they asked her to come for a meeting the next day. I couldn’t go as I had a meeting in the other side of the country. I asked her if she wanted me to move her meeting - no it's probably just a status thing I can do this myself. On my way home I had a crying mother in the phone. They had decided to forcefully remove both girls, to two different foster families.
Mikkel:
although for me and probably also for you it's just everyday stories. I talked to the people and I have a lot of contact and it's it's just this is normal. Still when you tell this in this moment and you listen to it, it touches you right? it's horrible it's horrible for this woman who has health problems, and they put stress on her on purpose and they end up taking her kids and they end up splitting them it's sad yeah.
Mette:
And she has a couple of hours with them every second week but not together. The foster families meet about once a month so the sisters can spend time together.
Mikkel:
They to make sure that they will not be able to make a connection and rebuild a family
Mette:
the two foster families meet once a month I think, where they are together for a couple of hours. Now it starts to become interesting because the mother wants them more and more home so one of them is coming home in August for 3 1/2 to 4 hours every third week. Beside of that they get to spend time together in a family house where they have been so far and I think ..well if you really want to confuse the child this is the way to do it where am I going to be with Mum next week?? am I going home or...?
Mikkel:
exactly everything that you didn't want you know you want to make a safe environment that they can predict and it's a stressful environment
Mette:
so they give them even more insecurity than they had before and the social worker told one of the foster parents that the mother needed to be more involved in her daughter's life ... Like coming to activities in kindergarten and coming to meetings in school in kindergarten and the foster mother said no there are no activities
Mikkel:
there are no activities? ... So the foster mum says that?
Mette:
yeah she said that there are no activities
Mette:
she loses money if this ends with her getting her back home to her biological mother.
Mikkel:
can I draw a line here to something that I've seen from my history in this? The idea here is that the social worker puts the blame on her... On the mom. And the advantage of that is that they don't have any responsibility because actually what a social worker should be doing is to come in then give some support so that the situation can walk out and what we see here is the way of distancing you... " well this is your problems I'm not going to deal with that you better fix it and I'm going to stress you while you trying to fix it,, so that we can see how that you are actually at it" and then again it takes the front back you know. I see this pattern of behaviour from Kari Killén this kind of way this theory allows for this. To make this person have so much trouble over here so they don't discover the trouble over here.
Mette:
it's also like paragraph 54 in law of social service you have the right to have a contact person if your child is forcefully removed. According to that paragraph the contact person has to work loyally to the authorities. What kind of help is that?
Mikkel:
yes exactly
Mette:
This mother wanted me as that contact person which I was for a while until I reach the point I said " I will help you but no way I want to get paid to shut up so I had it in my resignation. I said don't want this anymore but I'll be there for her I'm not going to accept any more crap
Mikkel:
which could have brought you into trouble you know there are lawsuits now against people who take up that role who has knowledge who has insight and who go against the commune
Mette:
will they can bring it on
Mikkel:
I realise when we sit and talk here that there was one of the subjects that I wanted to explore maybe actually already in the first interview but never mind that I have not touched upon all gone into and that is is woman Kari Killén seems to be lying a lot. Or what?
Mette:
well that could also be a kind of art
The last ten minutes not yet transcripted it will be ready in a few days.
Hej, jeg er Mikkel. Jeg sidder her ved siden af Mette. Hun vil præsentere sig om et minut.
Årsagen til, at jeg sidder her, er, at jeg har fået mine børn tvunget til forvaring af myndighederne. Jeg gav ikke mit samtykke på noget tidspunkt. Da jeg blev klar til at få mine børn tilbage, var systemet af en eller anden grund ikke klar til, at det skulle ske.
For cirka et år siden blev jeg aktivist på en meget eksplicit og konstruktiv måde. Det var aldrig på en aggressiv måde. Jeg prøvede at fortælle folk, at vi har et socialt system i Danmark, der ikke fungerer. Jeg prøvede at skabe opmærksomhed omkring ham ved at undersøge området.
Jeg vil også sige her, at normalt når vi taler sammen, gør vi det på dansk. Jeg har dog valgt, at dette interview skal være på engelsk. Dels fordi Mette er halvt engelsk. Men mest fordi dette emne er af international interesse.
Menneskerettighedsdomstolen har taget 26 sager op. De havde allerede 16 sager og har optaget 10 flere. Alle disse sager er fra Norge og om børn, der er taget i pleje.
Dette er uhørt, dette er meget og familier og børn. CBN, en amerikansk radiokanal, har sendt et program om, hvad der sker i Norge.
Norge og Danmark ligner meget deres måde at arbejde på dette område på. Jeg tror, at en meget central årsag hertil er, hvordan Kari Killéns teorier er blevet implementeret i retssystemet. Hun er videnskabsmand inden for børns velfærd eller i det mindste en kvinde, der skrev en masse bøger. Disse bøger skal du læse for at blive socialarbejder i Danmark, Norge og Sverige.
Den specielle ting er, at Kari Killéns teorier er gået ind i aw-systemet. Jeg plejede at sige, at loven ikke dømmer på vegne af den danske lov om social service. Men loven dømmer på vegne af Killéns begrebet dårlig forældre, jeg er ikke sikker på, om hun kom med konceptet, men hun reklamerer bestemt for det.
I min undersøgelse skriver jeg et brev hver torsdag, og jeg har fokuseret på emnet Kari Killén, som jeg valgte at skrive om. Dagen efter blev jeg kontaktet af en kvinde, der havde læst dette brev. Det var dig Mette, og jeg vil gerne have, at du fortæller lidt om grunden til, at du kontaktede mig.
Mette:
Jeg kontaktede dig, fordi din måde at analysere hendes teorier og metoder talte til mig. Jeg kunne se de samme ting, når jeg er ude at arbejde i marken.
Mikkel:
Arbejder du inden for?
Mette:
Det sociale felt
Mikkel:
Arbejder du som en?
Mette:
Juridisk rådgiver og konsulent
Mikkel:
Du er advokat?
Mette:
En advokat, ikke en advokat
Mikkel:
Og du har haft sager om, at børn blev fjernet med magt?
Mette:
I et år var jeg på en familieafdeling i vestjylland, hvor mit job var at rydde op i denne slags sager. Der havde overhovedet ikke været gjort noget lovligt arbejde.
Mikkel:
Du har en anden grund til at vide noget om Kari Killén. Vil du fortælle mig lidt om det?
Mette;
Hun er min mor
Mikkel:
Hun er din mor?
Mette:
Ja
Mikkel:
Okay, du trækker ikke nøjagtigt i den samme retning, som det ser ud til.
Mette:
Nej, jeg trækker i den modsatte retning. Jeg er forvirret. Jeg ser børn, der skal fjernes, der ikke fjernes. Jeg ser børn, som ikke bør tages væk fra deres forældre, der bliver taget væk fra deres forældre. Jeg oplever, at når børnene begynder at tilbringe tid med deres forældre et par timer ca. hver anden uge, er familiekonsulenterne ikke støttende, og der skrives ting, der ikke stemmer.
Mikkel:
Så de vil nedbryde vedhæftningen?
Mette:
Det er mit overordnede indtryk
Mikkel:
Hvorfor tror du, de vil have det?
Mette:
Jeg tror, det handler om penge. Også plejeforældrene taler om dårlige reaktioner, efter at børnene har tilbragt tid med deres biologiske forældre. Dette handler også om penge.
Mikkel:
Så de vil beholde børnene?
Mette:
Ja. De får betalt for at få børnene, så de har ingen interesse i at være en del af at hjælpe børnene med at komme hjem til deres biologiske familie.
Mikkel:
Så det handler om penge?
Mette:
Ja
Mikkel:
Tror du, at Kari Killéns teorier giver en måde at støtte denne ikke-konstruktive måde at minde om børnene i pleje på? Forstår du hvad jeg mener?
Mette:
Det er hvad jeg ser. I en af sine bøger skriver hun om frustrerende de biologiske forældre med vilje for at se, hvordan de håndterer stress. Som om det ikke er nok pres at overholdes og måske miste dit barn.
Mikkel:
Laughing
Mette:
Så vi lægger lidt mere ondt ind med det med vilje, bare for at stresse dem og se, hvordan de reagerer. Det er ondt.
Mikkel:
Mette… du skulle tro, at en kvinde, der er i stand til at fortælle hele Skandinavien, hvad der er passende eller ikke passende for at være en god forælder, selv ville være en god mor med en stærk tilknytning til sine børn. Er det tilfældet?
Mette:
Jeg ved det ikke. Jeg blev faktisk misbrugt i årevis af en mand fra vores gade, ligesom mange andre børn. Jeg blev også maleret af et familiemedlem.
Mikkel:
Mens du voksede op?
Mette:
Ja, mens hun havde travlt med at skrive sine berømte bøger
Mikkel:
Så stor kontrast her mellem hvad du vil sælge dig selv som eller nuværende og hvad der faktisk foregår i hendes liv
Mette:
Helt bestemt
Mikkel:
Vidste du noget om, hvad din mor gjorde på det tidspunkt?
Mette:
Ikke rigtig. Jeg vidste, at hun skrev. Og jeg kan huske, at jeg så et billede af et barn, der var blevet brændt med et strygejern. Jeg kommenterede det, og jeg kan huske hendes svar, at jeg skulle være så taknemmelig for det liv, jeg havde. Jeg har brændt mig mange gange siden ved et uheld, og jeg vil hellere blive brændt af et strygejern end at vokse op med hende.
Mikkel:
Så hun bemærkede dig ikke, eller måske ignorerede du dig?
Mette:
Jeg ved ikke, men jeg er ikke sikker på, hvad disse bøger er værd
Mikkel:
Det er noget af den mest alvorlige form for forsømmelse, hvis du ikke hjælper et barn, der lider. Jeg antager, at mange års seksuelt misbrug er temmelig massivt. Du skal enten ikke være særlig god til at bemærke, hvad der foregår, eller ignorere / forsømme?
Mette:
Hun var ikke særlig god til at sanse, hvad der foregik
Mikkel:
Så hun var travlt med at lede efter fejl fra andre forældre… ..
Mette:
Ja, men hun har aldrig gjort noget forkert
Mikkel:
Nej jeg kan at der ikke er noget galt her, ha ha… ..Er det historien om at holde udseendet? Skal alt se pænt og perfekt ud?
Mette:
Ja, men som hun sagde selv på en Youtube-video, bemærker du aldrig middelklasse-børnene.
Mikkel:
Og hun bemærkede det ikke?
Mette:
Nej, tilsyneladende ikke
Mikkel:
Har du konfronteret hende senere?
Mette:
Ja, hun indrømmer, at hun ikke bemærkede, at jeg blev misbrugt. Problemet er, at hun mener, at jeg er mentalt syg, fordi jeg blev misbrugt, og derfor har jeg ikke rimelige reaktioner. På den måde gør hun mig et offer for anden gang, og det gør mig vred. Hun overvejer aldrig, at jeg kunne være vred, bare fordi hun er en arrogant b….
Mikkel:
Er det sådan, du ser hende? Som en arrogant b…?
Mette:
Ja
Mikkel:
Så hun er ikke som denne varme familie person?
Mette:
Nå, måske med hendes børnebørn
Mikkel:
Okay, men hun kunne ikke lide dig?
Mette:
Nej, det tror jeg ikke
Mikkel:
Af en eller anden grund
Mette:
Og jeg kan ikke lide hende
Mikkel:
Meget tidligt eller hvad?
Mette:
Ja
Mikkel:
Ha ha hun taler om at der er vold og åbenlyse forsømmelse som tegn eller mærker. Og så taler hun om den følelsesmæssige forsømmelse, som er meget mere alvorlig, som at ikke lægge mærke til, ikke se .. at være kold eller ikke at erkende, at et barn bliver misbrugt.
Mette:
Nå, jeg tror, at alle flytningerne fra Norge til England, tilbage til Norge, derefter til Danmark og derefter tilbage til Norge, hun aldrig forstod, hvor svært det var for mig.
Mikkel:
Meget at bevæge sig rundt. Så jeg gætter på, at Kari Killén-tilknytningsteori ville antyde en solid grundrød. Men du har aldrig haft en chance for at få dig selv rodfæstet og derved opbygge en stabil identitet.
Mette:
Ingen
Mikkel:
Og du kan lide Danmark?
Mette:
Ja
Mikkel:
Og af en eller anden grund var det her, du ville være, og du gik tilbage hit, da du fyldte 18.
Mette:
Jeg tror, at årene fra dig er 8 til du er 12 er meget vigtige. Så jeg gik tilbage til Norge og følte mig som en dansker, og jeg følte mig aldrig mere norsk.
Mikkel:
Og du taler meget godt dansk. Jeg blev overrasket, da du kontaktede mig, at en dansker kunne være datter af Kari Killén, men når du ser dig fra siden, er der nogle ansigtsligheder.
Mette:
Jeg foretrækker at ligne min far
Mikkel:
Du gør ha ha…. Og din far er Ken Heap, der er engelsk
Mette;
var
Mikkel:
Blev han dansk statsborger?
Mette:
Ingen
Mikkel:
Men han boede her i nogle år i Danmark?
Mette:
Ja i de sidste 20 år. Efter at han blev skilt fra min mor, giftede han sig med en dansk kvinde, og de boede i Lyngby.
Mikkel:
Men du boede sammen, hvor længe?
Mette:
Jeg håber, da jeg var 18, på det tidspunkt var mine forældre stadig gift. De blev skilt, da min datter var 2½ år gammel.
Mikkel:
Så i din yngre periode, hvor du ikke oplevede, at din mor var den bedste mor for dig, vidste du betydningen af hendes arbejde?
Mette:
Nej, jeg indså betydningen af hendes arbejde, da jeg arbejdede i familieafdelingen og ryddet op i deres rod. Så måtte jeg læse bøgerne, og jeg var meget overrasket over den magt, hendes teorier havde. Jeg var der fra 2002-2003.
Mikkel:
Men du vidste ikke eller forstod før det, at din mor faktisk var så vigtig og magtfuld person?
Mette:
Nej, det var derfor, jeg måtte læse hendes bøger
Mikkel:
Så du sidder der med 50 sager, der ikke har været igennem nogen domstolsproces, mens børnene er blevet taget, og dine sidder der med bunker med papirer?
Mette:
Ja, socialarbejderne havde netop lavet deres egne konklusioner
Mikkel:
På det tidspunkt var du faktisk på samme side af bordet som din mor
Mette:
På dette tidspunkt indså jeg, at jeg faktisk var ved at rydde op efter mine mores disciple.
Mikkel:
Og på det tidspunkt besluttede du, at du ikke ville fortsætte dette arbejde?
Mette:
Det var et projekt, og da jeg havde løst det, der skulle løses, gik jeg tilbage
Mikkel:
Jeg tænker bare nu, kunne du have været den der gjorde forskellen?
Mette:
Når jeg tænker tilbage, kunne jeg, hvis jeg havde modet til det
Mikkel:
Så du skulle have været? Du skulle have reformeret?
Mette:
Nej, jeg forlod, da projektet var færdig, og jeg så ikke tilbage
Mikkel:
Faktisk har du en opdragelse, der kunne have været som en af Kari Killéns sager. Som socialt arbejdede ville du i så fald helt sikkert gribe ind. Ingen lægger mærke til, at det glider gennem systemet. Ingen bemærkede dig, og så besluttede du dig på et tidspunkt at studere jura.
Mette:
Jeg gik til et interview på socialarbejderskolen i Aarhus, og de sagde, det ville være en ære at have mig der.
Mikkel:
På grund af Killén?
Mette:
Ja og Heap, de havde begge undervist der
Mikkel:
Hvilken alder var du
Mette:
Cirka 21
Mikkel:
Så det var faktisk ikke fordi du indså, at der var noget helt galt her? Du blev bare overrasket?
Mette:
Ja, det frækede mig ud
Mikkel:
Så det var ikke noget, du ønskede at være relateret til?
Mette:
Nej, jeg ville ikke gå i deres fodspor eller blive sammenlignet med dem
Mikkel:
Så du besluttede ikke at gå den vej
Mette:
Ja, så jeg valgte at studere jura, og så kunne jeg bruge min uddannelse på det sociale område.
Mikkel:
Du ville arbejde på det sociale område. Var du en idealist? Så du ting, der burde have været gjort bedre?
Mette:
Jeg tror jeg stadig er. I et stykke tid arbejdede jeg frivilligt med flygtningefamilier. Også der oplevede jeg familiekonsulenter, som ikke forstod og forsøgte at forstå kulturelle forskelle i forhold til, hvordan man opdrætter børn.
Mikkel;
Ja, så du besluttede at blive advokat, jeg tror, det har brug for en masse studier
Mette:
Det gør det
Mikkel:
Og du havde energi til at gøre alt det, der studerede?
Mette:
Ja, men jeg kunne ikke have gjort det i dag, det er helt sikkert
Mikkel:
Er det fordi du har ændret, eller fordi systemet har ændret sig?
Mette:
Jeg synes, det var så svært, fordi min datter var et år, da jeg begyndte, og i løbet af det sidste år på universitetet havde jeg min søn, så jeg var nødt til at bruge al min tid på at studere, mens de sov.
Mikkel:
Og hvordan var dit liv på det tidspunkt? Du havde en ret grov opvækst. At være seksuelt misbrugt i årevis er groft. Hvis vi følger Kari Killéns måde at tænke på, bør din opdragelse have indflydelse. Men alligevel syntes du at leve et ret funktionelt liv også med en viljestyrke.
Mette:
Nå, jeg havde en depression efter at jeg blev mor, og jeg var i terapi i cirka 5 år.
Mikkel:
Var din mor støttende på det tidspunkt?
Mette:
Faktisk betalte hun min terapi, indtil mine forældre blev skilt. Så betalte hun kun halvdelen af min terapi, hvis min far betalte den anden halvdel. Jeg ville ikke sidde fast i midten, så derfra betalte jeg mig selv.
Mikkel:
Så du havde et forholdsvis godt forhold på det tidspunkt?
Mette;
Ja, da de blev skilt, blev hun så patetisk, var hjælpeløs og nød sine børnebørn.
Mikkel:
Vi forsøger at gøre til interviews, en med fokus på Mette`s opdragelse og en anden med fokus på den teoretiske virkning set i relation til dette. Vi er nu nået en halv time. Tak for at have set og tak for interviewet om dit liv.
Hello, I am Mikkel. I am sitting here next to Mette. She will introduce herself in a minute.
The reason why I am sitting here, is that I have had my children taken into custody forcefully by the authorities. I did not give my consent at any point. When I became ready to have my children back, the system was for some reason not ready for that to happen.
About a year ago, I became an activist in a very explicit and constructive way. It was never in an aggressive way. I tried to tell people, that we have a social system in Denmark that doesn’t work. I tried to create awareness about his by investigating the area.
I will also say here, that normally when we speak together we do that in Danish. However I have chosen for this interview to be in English. Partly because Mette is half English. But mostly because this subject is of international interest.
The Human Rights Court has taken up 26 cases. They already had 16 cases, and have taken up 10 more. All of these cases are from Norway and about children taken into foster care.
This is unheard of, this is a lot og families and children. CBN an American Broadcast Channel, has broadcasted a program about what is happening in Norway.
Norway and Denmark are very similar in the way they work in this area. I think a very central reason for this, is the way Kari Killéns theories have been implemented in the legal system. She is a scientist in the area of child welfare, or at least a woman who wrote a lot of books. These books you have to read, in order to become a social worker in Denmark, Norway and Sweden.
The special thing is that Kari Killéns theories have gone into the aw system. I used to say that the the law does not judge on behalf of the Danish law of Social Service. But the law judges on behalf of Killéns concept of bad parenting, I am not sure if she came up with the concept, but she is certainly advertising it.
In my investigation, I write a letter every Thursday, and I have been focusing on the subject of Kari Killén, which I chose to write about. The day after, I was contacted by a woman who had read this letter. That was you Mette, and I would like you to tell a little about the reason you contacted me.
Mette:
I contacted you because your way of analyzing her theories and methods spoke to me. I could se the same things when I am out working in the field.
Mikkel:
Working in the field of?
Mette:
Well, the social field
Mikkel:
You work as a?
Mette:
Legal advisor and consultant
Mikkel:
You are a lawyer?
Mette:
A lawyer not a barrister
Mikkel:
And you have had cases about children being forcefully removed?
Mette:
Well, for a year I was in a family department in west Jutland, where my job was to tidy up in these kinds of cases. There had been no legal work done at all.
Mikkel:
You have another reason to know something about Kari Killén. Will you tell me a little about that?
Mette;
She is my mother
Mikkel:
She is you mother?
Mette:
Yes
Mikkel:
Alright, you are not exactly pulling in the same direction it seems.
Mette:
No, I am pulling in the opposite direction. I am confused. I se children who should be removed, that are not removed. I se children who should not be taken away from their parents who are taken away from their parents. I experience that when the children start spending time with their parents a couple of hours about every second week, the family consultants are not supportive, and things are written that are not true.
Mikkel:
So they want to break down the attachment?
Mette:
That is my over all impression
Mikkel:
Why do you think they want that?
Mette:
I think it’s all about money. Also the foster parents talk about bad reactions after the children have spent time with their biological parents. This is also about money.
Mikkel:
So they want to keep the children?
Mette:
Yes. They get payed to have the children, so they have no interest in being a part of helping the children to come home to their biological family.
Mikkel:
So it’s about money?
Mette:
Yes
Mikkel:
Do you think that Kari Killéns theories are giving a way of supporting this non constructive way of remining the children in care? Do you understand what I mean?
Mette:
That is what I see. In one of her books she writes about frustrating the biological parents on purpose in order to see how they handle stress. As if it is not enough pressure to be observed and maybe loose your child.
Mikkel:
Laughing
Mette:
So we put just a little more evil into it on purpose, just to stress them and see how they react. That is evil.
Mikkel:
Mette… you s hould think that a woman who is able to tell all of Scandinavia what is appropriate or not appropriate in order to be a good parent, would herself be a good mother with a strong attachment to her children. Is that the case?
Mette:
Well, I don’t know. I was actually molested for years by a man from our street, as were many other children. Also I was molested by a family member.
Mikkel:
While you grew up?
Mette:
Yes while she was busy writing her famous books
Mikkel:
So big contrast here between what you want to sell yourself as or present and what is actually going on in her life
Mette:
Definitely
Mikkel:
Did you know anything about what you mum was doing at that time?
Mette:
Not really. Well I knew she was writing. And I remember I saw a picture of a child who had been burnt with an iron. I commented it, and I remember her answering that I should be so thankful for the life I had. I have burnt myself many times since by accident, and I would rather be burnt by an iron than growing up with her.
Mikkel:
So she didn’t notice you or maybe ignored you?
Mette:
I don’t know, but I am not sure what those books are worth
Mikkel:
It is some of the most serious kind of neglect if you don’t help a child who is suffering. I guess that years of sexual abuse is pretty massive. You either have to be not very good at noticing what is going on, or you ignore/neglect?
Mette:
She was not very good at sensing what was going on
Mikkel:
So she was busy looking for mistakes of other parents…..
Mette:
Yes but she never did anything wrong
Mikkel:
No I can that there is nothing wrong here, ha ha…..Is that the story of keeping up appearance? Should everything look nice and perfect?
Mette:
Yes but as she said herself on a Youtube Video you never notice the middle class kids.
Mikkel:
And she didn’t notice?
Mette:
No, apparently not
Mikkel:
Have you confronted her later?
Mette:
Yes, she admits that she didn’t notice that I was abused. The problem is that she thinks I am mentally ill because I was abuse, and therefore I do not have reasonable reactions. In that way she makes me a victim the second time around, and that makes me angry. She never considers that I could be angry just because she is an arrogant b….
Mikkel:
Is that how you se her? As an arrogant b…?
Mette:
Yes
Mikkel:
So she is not like this warm family person?
Mette:
Well, maybe with her grandchildren
Mikkel:
Alright, but she didn’t like you?
Mette:
No, I don’t think so
Mikkel:
For some reason
Mette:
And I don’t like her
Mikkel:
Very early or what?
Mette:
Yeah
Mikkel:
Ha ha she talks about that there is violence og obvious neglect like signs or marks. And then she talks about the emotional neglect, which is much more serious, like not noticing, not seeing.. being cold, or not acknowledging that a child is being abused.
Mette:
Well I think that all the moves from Norway to England, back to Norway, then to Denmark and then back to Norway, she never understood how hard that was for me.
Mikkel:
A lot of moving around. So I guess that Kari Killén attachment theory, would imply a solid ground root. But you never had a chance to get yourself rooted, and thereby building a steady identity.
Mette:
No
Mikkel:
And you like Denmark?
Mette:
Yes
Mikkel:
And for some reason that was here you wanted to be, and you went back here when you turned 18.
Mette:
I think the years from you are 8 to you are 12 are very important. So I went back to Norway feeling like a Dane, and I never felt Norwegian again.
Mikkel:
And you speak very well Danish. I was surprised when you contacted me, that a Dane could be the daughter of Kari Killén, but seeing you from the side, there are some facial similarities.
Mette:
I would prefer to look like my father
Mikkel:
You do ha ha…. And your father is Ken Heap, who is English
Mette;
Was
Mikkel:
Did he become a Danish citizen?
Mette:
No
Mikkel:
But he lived here for some years in Denmark?
Mette:
Yes for about his last 20 years. After he divorced my mother he married a Danish woman, and they lived in Lyngby.
Mikkel:
But you lived together for how long?
Mette:
I lefts when I was 18, at that point my parents were still married. They got divorced when my daughter was 2½ years old.
Mikkel:
So in your younger periode, where you were not experiencing that you mother was being the best mother for you, did you know the meaning of her work?
Mette:
No, I realized the meaning of her work, when I was working in the family department, tidying up their mess. Then I had to read he books, and I was very surprised about the power her theories had. I was there from 2002-2003.
Mikkel:
But you didn’t know or understand before that, that your mother actually was that important and powerful a person?
Mette:
No, that’s why I had to read her books
Mikkel:
So you are sitting there with 50 cases, that has not been through any court process, while the kids have been taken, and your are sitting there with piles of papers?
Mette:
Yes, the social workers had just made their own conclusions
Mikkel:
Actually at that time you were on the same side of the table as your mum
Mette:
At t hat point I realized that I was actually tidying up after my mums disciples.
Mikkel:
And at that point you decided that you wouldn’t continue this work?
Mette:
Well, it was a project, and when I had solved what needed to be solved, I left
Mikkel:
I am just thinking now, could you have been the one who made the difference?
Mette:
Thinking back I could, if I had the courage to do so
Mikkel:
So you should have stayed? You should have been reforming?
Mette:
No, I left when the project was done, and I didn’t look back
Mikkel:
In fact you have an upbringing that could have been like one of Kari Killéns cases. Asa social worked you would in that case definitely intervene. No one notices that slip through the system. Nobody noticed you, and then at some point you decided to study law.
Mette:
I went for an interview at the social worker school in Aarhus, and they said it would be an honor to have me there.
Mikkel:
Because of Killén?
Mette:
Yes and Heap, they had both been teaching there
Mikkel:
What age were you
Mette:
About 21
Mikkel:
So actually it wasn’t because you realized that there was something completely wrong here? You were just surprised?
Mette:
Yes it freaked me out
Mikkel:
So it wasn’t something you wanted to be related with?
Mette:
No I didn’t want to walk in their footsteps or being compared to them
Mikkel:
So you decided not to go that way
Mette:
Yes, so I chose to study law, and then I could use my education in the social area.
Mikkel:
You wanted to work in the social area. Were you an idealist? Did you see things that should have been done better?
Mette:
I think I still am. For a while I was working voluntarily with refugee families. Also there I experienced family consultants, who did not understand og try to understand cultural differences in relation to how to raise children.
Mikkel;
Yeah so you decided to become a lawyer, I think it needs a lot of studying
Mette:
It does
Mikkel:
And you had the energy to do all that studying?
Mette:
Yes, but I couldn’t have done it today, that’s for sure
Mikkel:
Is that because you have changed or because the system has changed?
Mette:
I think it was so hard because my daughter was one year when I started, and during the last year at University I had my son, so I had to use all of my time studying while they were sleeping.
Mikkel:
And how was your life at that point? You had a fairly rough upbringing. Being sexually abused for years is rough. If we follow Kari Killéns way of thinking, your upbringing should have an impact. But yet you seemed to live a fairly functional life also with a willpower.
Mette:
Well, I had a depression after a became a mother, and I was in therapy for about 5 years.
Mikkel:
Was your mother supportive at that time?
Mette:
Actually she payed my therapy until my parents got divorced. Then she would only pay half of my therapy if my father payed the other half. I didn’t want to get stuck in the middle, so from thereon I payed myself.
Mikkel:
So you had a fairly good relation at that point?
Mette;
Yes, when they got divorced she became so pathetic, was helpless and enjoyed her grandchildren.
Mikkel:
We are trying to do to interviews, one focusing on Mette´`s upbringing, and another focusing on the theoretical impact seen in relation to this. We have now reached half an hour. Thank you for watching and thank you for the interview about your life.
